I've Got an IDEA (Scary, ain't it?)

[Fax Malysus]

Instead of all this mumbo-jumbo about a method of "work" must be established, why don't we do things in the following manner?



I'm going to use Delvenus as an example, for simplicity's sake.



1. Governmental positions receive a weekly income.

--not only does this create incentive to get a job, this creates an incentive to DO a job. If people are frustrated that you're getting paid for doing nothing, you'll get kicked and someone else will get your job.



2. Independent Organizations (at least for a while) receive an amount equal to 10,000 Delvenusian Credits to start a business.

--This should cover wages for a few weeks and the construction of a home ofice.



3. Independent Organizations gain capital through marketing of their products. Since this will be rather difficult in a nontangible environment, I suggest the following:

--Things that can be sold (for instance, a NEWS subscription would be about 500DC for a year; Gray Wolf Elite Mercenary Squad will charge amounts between 1000 and 100,000DC for specific "jobs") should have no real problems.

--Things that cannot be sold (ie: lumber, ore, etc) might have a little difficulty. However, if the board admin (aka president of a construction company) charges (roughly) 5,000DC for the "construction" of a home office (aka forum). However, that admin will then have to purchase "supplies" from other corporations. Similarly, Gray Wolf will need to buy ammunition/weapons from other organizations. NEWS will have to buy paper. But weapons and paper can be linked directly to resources.



4. Intangible resources (lumber, ore, and the like) have a set rate of production proportional to both the number of employees that company has and the amount of money they are willing to put into their business.





This way, the government directy fuels the economy.



And for simplicity's sake, the government can't run out of money. Exorbitent amounts of cash (ie: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DC) are, of course, ludicrous and should be treated as such. Or we could give the government a set starting amount of cash and from there give them a rate of minting.



In any case, I believe that this format MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK. The only problem (and this has shot down every other economic attempt in the past) is getting it started. In order for this to work, we all have to begin at the same time and have an exchange rate or common currency with comparable wages.



Think about it....I think this format's worth a shot.

-Fax Malysus

NEWS Editor-In-Chief
Politio
Solomirathius of Delvenus
Moderator of the Delvenus Convention

pub37.ezboard.com/brepublicofdelvenus

[Ari Rahikkala]

Umm... I don't see any new ideas in here...



Weekly salaries for government officials - done, didn't work



Independent organizations gain starting money - not sure if actually done. Starting money for citizens has been done and it has worked, kind of. See www.geocities.com/jasonia...umTips.htm



Production rate for intangible resources - just how complicated do you want to make the economic simulation ? We'll soon need to have a programmer just running the economy itself...



Number three was so simple and intuitive that the actual meaning of what you said escaped my thinking...



However, putting all those together might actually be a working idea.  

Caminante no hay camino,
Se hace camino al andar.
- Antonio Machado

[William Howard]

This holds some similarity to Baracão's economy. Alot of those ideas are incorporated and so far we are getting along fine.



Our economy is by no means perfect but it is workable. It doesn't involve long sums and formulas but is based on production and dare I say it, having a little fun. It is meant to be easy and accessable.



We have, I hope, begun what should be a succesful economy. It already forms an important part of our nation. For example our defence minister would like to say 'I have [this many] soldiers and [this many] tanks' but he can't. He has to work within our economy and try to get money from the governments budget to expand. He must also take into account that troops cost money and wages, he has to buy fuel for vehicles and ammo for guns.



If you want to see what we use look at the Ministry of Economics (pub25.ezboard.com/fbaracaofrm20).

William Howard

Chairman

Republic of Baracão

[Fax Malysus]

What I MEANT was that pay comes originally from the government.



And the other thing is that it didn't work only because it wasn't widely supported.

-Fax Malysus

NEWS Editor-In-Chief
Politio
Solomirathius of Delvenus
Moderator of the Delvenus Convention

pub37.ezboard.com/brepublicofdelvenus

[Fax Malysus]

Quote: Weekly salaries for government officials - done, didn't work

Why not?

Quote: Independent organizations gain starting money - not sure if actually done. Starting money for citizens has been done and it has worked, kind of. See www.geocities.com/jasonia...umTips.htm

I think that this one is at the very least worth a shot. After all, people need money to run an economy, don't they?

Quote: Production rate for intangible resources - just how

complicated do you want to make the economic simulation? We'll soon need to have a programmer just running the economy itself...

We're not talking anything incredibly complex. A look-up table would suffice.

Quote: Number three was so simple and intuitive that the actual meaning of what you said escaped my thinking...

Quote: However, putting all those together might actually be a working idea.

That's why I suggested it. It seems like it'd work to me, but I can't do it all on my own (regardless of whether or not I believe I'm a minor deity, I'm not THAT powerful). I still believe that the largest factor involved in starting an economy is and always will be public support.

-Fax Malysus

NEWS Editor-In-Chief
Politio
Solomirathius of Delvenus
Moderator of the Delvenus Convention

pub37.ezboard.com/brepublicofdelvenus

[Trevon Andarosel]

Your idea sounds somewhat like the Babkhan economy, too.



The reason why it didn't work was that the Government didn't have an infinite amount of money. It shouldn't even have. The total amount of money  represents the a kind of value which is available within the country (I think mr. Siskind explained in his "Wealth of Micronations"). This value is finite, so if you have an inifinite amount of money, the money becomes worthless.



A government driven economy can only be used if you generate a money flow back to the government. Better: all money must eventually go back to the government. Therefore, taxes are not enough (and quite a stupid idea, because you get paid by the government). What can the Government offer?



- Real Services

- Virtual goods



And then you are at the discussion in the wealth-of-micronations thread, realists vs. virtualists.



As you probably already know, I would favour exactly this type of government-driven economy with real services, but I don't want to start the goods/services discussion again.



On the other hand, perhaps it is useful to discuss the realsit variant, for those who are stubborn or don't want to take part in the Big Intermicronational Economy. The advantage of the real services economy is that it can run standalone, after all.



Trevon.



 

The storyteller of Ex, Umbagollah


Ilotim ilo arelisin il parduvile arelis te arelisin
The truth is just too true to be true for everyone

[Brendig45]

Yes, very true. In Babkha, I found that we only got back a proportion of what we paid in taxes, and since the government is the key wage-paying group, unlike businesses in teh real world, so we almost ran out of money. And since we had a stock exchange, but no virtual goods and services, we lost another sigificant area of revenue.  

Jeffrey Leong


Vizier of The Ministry of Trade and
Economics

Satrap of Kelestan

Sartip of the Imperial Babkhan Army

Ambassador to the LoSS


Kingdom of Babkha

[Knight Magistrate]

I've been reading old laws of my nation, in book and online form (you can see some at www.lawphil.net) and it surprises me that in the late 1900s, since under the Spanish money was scarce and often exported to the Spanish Court by way of Mexico, the Americans had to create a Postal Savings Bank to get people used to the habit of banking.



What I mean is, generally countries first put up measures to create a form of currency, backed up by something (government's promise, or cold gold). And while they can just print themselves away, usually international concerns control it (the IMF/WB say you can only borrow so much, but you have to: improve schooling and your infrastructure, improve your tax base; investors will shy away from your exchange and you currency like plague rats...)



What I'm essentially saying....aren't the most stable countries in the microworld where people really want to take part in your economy?

Chrysostom of Jerusalem Speaker of the House of Peoples Treasurer of the United Republic United Republic of Tymaria Doge of the Palpatines State of Machiavellia Brigadier, Tymarian Army (Reserve) MoD#783PA9229AB6I06Y Associate Justice League of Micronations Intermicronational Court of Justice Archivist League of Micronations As Kunshuhito Wa Resident of the City of Ex, Province of Ex Umbagollah As Crisostomo de la Cruz Ibarra NGS Independent Representative California 36th District Home of Loyola Marymount

[Trevon Andarosel]

Yes, if people really don't want to participate you can't get an economy running. However, if the inactivity or unwillingness or whatever is temperorary (after all, we are talking about small numbers of people here, so the amount of activity can fluctuate pretty much), you need a robust economic system, which can survive this period.



If you can get automatical monthly paid services (like, email account, double loginname tax, newspaper delivery, etc.) in equilibrium with the monthly paid salaries, it will work.



Since you only talk services in this case, the backup value is inhabitants and inhabitant activity. People who are doing stuff is the only real resource micronations have.



Trevon Andarosel.

The storyteller of Ex, Umbagollah


Ilotim ilo arelisin il parduvile arelis te arelisin
The truth is just too true to be true for everyone

[Trevon Andarosel]

Discussion on service based economy is continued in the thread "On service based economies" by mr. Avonts.



Trevon Andarosel.

The storyteller of Ex, Umbagollah


Ilotim ilo arelisin il parduvile arelis te arelisin
The truth is just too true to be true for everyone

[KISEENIA]

I would like to tell you about a real-life micronational economy, that I've implemented. I don't say that this is the best, probably it's one of the worst. First of all, the economy has some of the strategies that the Romanian economy has, for example, the artificial infusion of real capital. I start from the idea that every Mikei (the national coin) should be backed by something (resource, real money which are also backed, etc.) and also that every of the 20 citizens (being at a resonable distance from me [I met them all]) should participate by recieving money and paying for them.

So, first of all, I started searching for methods of giving a backing my money. I am 16 years old, so I don't pay taxes. Furthermore, the Romanian State sustains me and also my parents do with lots and lots of money. So, I first established the GUaranteing Fund of the National Bank of Kiseenia, that is, a stable fund made in US$ that sustains the exchange rate of 1 Mikei=2 US$. After that, I started printing Mikeis in a small number, especially small bills (we don't have coins) and established an exchange office where people could buy a Mikei for 2,50 $, the difference being presentd as a service fee. As the costs of printing were 0.20 $,  remained with 0,30$ each time I sold a Mikei. So, for every seven Mikeis sold I had 2 US$, new and reday to be placed in the Natinal Reserve.

After backing a lot of money in this way, I started minting more new money, with a smaller backing, about 1 $, and give them as salaries for different duties. They were also imposited, but with the first tipe of bills, so we recovered the 2$ Mikeis and placed on the market the 1$ mikeis. The result was a rest of $ that remained without use. With them we bought products and made investments in banking and stocks of Romania, so they "grew", producing an interest that was used to bring the 1$ Mikeis to 2$ value. The surplus of $ was used to other payments. After this, people bought the products we sold (the ones we bought with the difference of $) for a bigger price and the process started again. I might say, that, on a micro-micronational level, we have a working economy, though it would be impossible to me, given the tehnical difficulties to make this system go with my Internet citizens.

I wanted to present this micronational economy, because on my nation's site you won't find anything related to money, because of the previous reason.

Best Regards,

King John-Lucas I,

King of Kiseenia.