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Austi Scot
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Posts: 56


« on: May 11, 2002, 12:24 PM »

As you all know I am not currently involved with any micronation, however an economic simulation for micronations has been and is of interest to me. Therefore I wish to put in a few comments – if I may be so permitted.



Some definitions are in order so that all involved will understand the effort to simulate an economy. If you do not like the definitions presented here I suggest that you find others that can be universally accepted among the micronations which are a part of this effort.



Definition: Economy – An economy is the way a country produces, distributes, and consumes its wealth.



Economic decisions are how to produce, distribute and consume.



There are three basic types of economies –

1.        Traditional :

People make economic decisions according to custom.



2.        Command:

The government usually owns or controls the resources and makes most economic decisions.



3.        Market:

Most resources belong to private individuals who make their own economic decisions with the guidance of the market prices.



Many political systems have a blend of these three basic types of economic systems and would therefore be called mixed economies.



Definition: Resources – The basic elements used to produce goods and services.



There are three basic kinds of resources –

1.        Human:

This means the people and includes such things as their knowledge, talents, education, skills, abilities, labor and management.



2.        Natural:

This means the raw materials that are used by people to produce goods and services. These include such things as minerals, coal, timber, air, water, grass, fish and other food – and the one item that perhaps will be the most important in an economic simulation – time.



3.        Capital:

These are the items that are produced by combining human and natural resources. Such things as machinery, factories, tools, infrastructure, buildings etc. are included.







There are three basic questions that must be addressed in any economy.



1.        What goods and services should be produced?

2.        How should those goods and services be produced?

3.        Who should receive those goods and services?



1 – What goods and services should be produced?



In a simulation you will need a method for producing the real life factors that drive an economy.



You will need to set up a method that produces scarcity. Scarcity is the inability to satisfy all of everyone’s wants and needs.



If every person or indeed every micronation had every resource available in the quantity needed the simulation would break down quickly. If every micronation had the human resources needed to develop their natural resources into capital goods there would be no need to have immigration for work purposes.



I therefore suggest the first step is a natural resource map with all the micronations  which wish to be involved. There of course can be other nations on the map that are not involved right now and even more micronations added to the map later. The main point in having the map is that all the natural resources must not available in every nation and the map must be respected by all.



There must be a method to add, basically discover, new resources or additional supplies of natural resources.



2 - How should those goods and services be produced?



The issue of territory belonging to or being under the control of individuals or governments is not foreign to micronations. This is basically a property rights issue and for the most part is well recognized in micronations for the simulation of land ownership. The possibility of disputes and lawsuits are a part of the game that can make some of this aspect interesting and fun. There can be the sale and registration of land deeds etc. along with accompany legislation.



The real in-depth aspect of this is the production level. Perhaps there should be a general agreement that only a certain number of hours can be said to produce goods and services. A given individual might be allotted up to a certain number of hours and those hours said to produce a certain quality of goods under given circumstances.



Perhaps the total time allotted is 112 hours per week or perhaps another number. Perhaps those who are elected or serve in a government office must spend a given amount of their work hours in the performance of their government duties at a salary set by legislation.



Perhaps the hours allowed to use their human resource in conjunction with natural resources to produce capital resources for sale is limited by other factors such as a predetermined ability or access to machinery. Perhaps their productivity will be limited by their purchase of food and the quality of their shelter along with the land they own and the natural resources on it according to the natural resource map.



And perhaps the production level can be increased with the purchase of machinery that is produced by yet another person.



The main idea here is that time and ability are resources that must be scarce. If a person has all the time and ability along with the natural resources there is no need to have economic activity with others.







3 - Who should receive those goods and services?



This will be a function of which basic type of economy is set up in each micronation. Each one could set up a different internal type of economy for the production of goods and services and yet there can be inter-micronational trade.



The mechanism for setting this up would be a banking system in each micronation along with a currency exchange mechanism. Everyone here knows who to go to for a foreign exchange method. However, one million units of currency per micronation, IMHO, will soon become too small if the population grows to any size. But I do think one million is a figure that can be worked with for some time yet.



The trick on this part will be to set up yet another aspect of real life economies, that being need. Perhaps there can be a sort of economic race – who has the largest and most government buildings. Who has the largest homes and most paved roads – which micronation has the most luxury items per citizen – set up both a minimum requirement and a record to keep track of which micronation is the most developed based on the overall wealth.



Don’t allow people or micronations to simply declare they own such and such but require a certain amount of raw goods must be produced (mined, harvested, caught) by a certain amount of labor –  in order to produce a given capital good.

__________



Every needed detail is not in the document above but the outline is there. You can reject it or use any part of it you want. You can change any part of it you want.



Austi Scot







 

austi_scot@hotmail.com

ICQ 94954489

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Scott Siskind
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2002, 02:08 PM »

Austi, it looks like for once we agree completely on something.

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Fax Malysus
Guest
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2002, 05:42 AM »

Amazing...me too

-Fax Malysus

NEWS Editor-In-Chief
Politio
Solomirathius of Delvenus
Moderator of the Delvenus Convention

pub37.ezboard.com/brepublicofdelvenus

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Peter Little
Guest
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2002, 07:08 AM »

I also agree

Pete Little
National Affairs Minister of South Mondesia
Minister of Culture of Tymaria

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Austi Scot
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Posts: 56


« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2002, 09:01 AM »

Scott Siskind,



I read your manifesto “The Wealth of Micronations” after I posted the above statement. I noticed how much I agreed with you with the exception of currency exchange.



Fax and Peter –

It truly is amazing that we agree. I think I like that – umm



_______________

The steps I see to developing an economic simulation across micronational boarders.

1)        Resource map.

2)        Political map overlaid on resource map.

3)        A list of capital goods that can be produced. ex: Buildings of steel, of stone, of wood – etc: machinery that mine, that transport, that automate: animals that provide food and material for clothing, plants that provide food and material

4)        Agreements on which resources and in what quantity are needed to produce a given capital good.

5)        Production levels – including how much time it takes to do any given thing and a development scheme.

6)        How to distribute the finished capital goods.





Anyway – I think the first problem to overcome is the resource map. I see there have been accusations of partiality. That is mostly likely going to happen at every step of the way with every aspect. This can be overcome by starting the map over and that by people who are not a part of any nation involved in the economic simulation.



Yes, that is a difficult point to reach but me lay out an outline for that first step.



Recognize a list of natural resources and the uses for those resources. Which ones will be used to make buildings, to heat, to build infrastructure etc. and how much will be needed for a given project. How much for a building of a given size for example, how much food a person must use – things of this nature. An agreement must come forth that no nation or individual may do things economically outside the use of those resources and they may not have resources that do not exist on the map.



I suggest that a blank map be started and grid lines placed on this map first. Then – with no nations situated anywhere and the map not revealed – the resources are placed on the map randomly.



Then, with the resources positions not revealed the nations draw lot – the nation with the first lot picks grid lines where their nations is placed and on through the list of nations till all are placed on the map.



Yes – two problems – the larger the geographically land mass the more resources a nation will have and the map will most likely look different (positioning of nations that are now side by side).



For the first I suggest a census that is used to allow so may square miles per citizen – or come up with a different plan for the square miles of each nation. Perhaps the traditional size of the existing nations can be used. Thus if a given micronation is currently large or small on the existing map they will have to live with that situation.



For the second – too bad!



After this is done the location of resources can be revealed. Again I suggest the map maker be someone who isn’t involved with any of the nations.



If I may suggest – perhaps there should be two sets of resource maps. One that will show the surface resources – forest, gravel, pastureland – and one that keeps track of the underground resources, which are not revealed until the land is mined. In this fashion there would be economic growth and development could take place. With a limit on the time a person has to work (simulated of course) , and the need for the discovery of natural resources before they could be used for capital improvement the economic race would have yet another aspect of real life – land use committees and planning commissions.





Of course for some this means a simulation that is too complicated for their taste – but then I also think people can be as involved or uninvolved in an economic simulation as they wish to be, just like they can with the political simulation.



Austi

 

austi_scot@hotmail.com

ICQ 94954489

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Constantin of Sidona
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2002, 02:29 PM »

I am in agreement that a new map should be drawn up.

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Lord Raglan
Guest
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2002, 09:00 AM »

It is nice to see all of these ideas coming together.  I think all can agree with what Austi is saying.  However, here comes in the impartiality part...



These underground resources, who decides where they are and how can we ensure that we will not know beforehand?  Would we steal a bit from D&D and use a dice or random number generator?



Plus, what group would oversee this massive undertaking?  I understand that each country participating would probably take care of its own economy, as in regulation and rules.  For international business and to ensure that all countries are participating at an even level, there would have to be a certain format that all would have to follow to ensure that all are doing this system right...  We could have a central forum for this that all of these nations would go to, but that would be releasing the sovereignity of those nations...



I think we would have to form a council that would supervise this entire operation.  To be fair, each and every participating nation would have to appoint one member to this council.  A nation's member would ensure that the economy of another nation follows the rules.  This council would be unable to participate in the economic system.



As to a new map, well, it would bring a bit of fairness to this situation, yet we will have to be careful about population counts if we use that for land decisions...

Nick Raglan

RS Duke of Lothlaria (temp)

MACH Duke of Italia

Special Assistant to the Prime Executive

Chief of Defense Staff, TDF

General, TOG

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Peter Little
Guest
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2002, 10:15 AM »

I agree, as rep for SM I can only guess where our resources are, And as far as I can see, we only have gold.

Pete Little
National Affairs Minister of South Mondesia
Minister of Culture of Tymaria

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Constantin of Sidona
Guest
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2002, 05:32 AM »

Honourable Representatives,



I am quite willing to undertake this task, of course with some help from the original map makers, and a lot of advice from other members of the micronational community. I seriously do see much potential in creating such a map that would be fair to all countries, and I firmly believe that a micronational economic system based on both real and virtual goods and services can be formed, to the benefit of all our nations. However, I will need to gauge how many nations would actually be interested in such a proposition. I ask also for the opinion of those partaking in the discussion here.

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Peter Little
Guest
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2002, 09:39 AM »

When we talk of fairness, we cant be perfectly fair since the world is not like that, instead of we should have it remade so it is more like the world(resources located in some climate regions, you get the idea).

Pete Little
National Affairs Minister of South Mondesia
Minister of Culture of Tymaria

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HIH Diga Makonnen IV
Guest
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2002, 10:43 AM »

I do have one question, though.  What about micronations that already have their own map and have their internal systems linked to their map?  Is the committee willing to take the shape of said micronation and add it to this map?









Imperial Ras Diga Makonnen IV

Co-Regent and Imperial Ras of Attera



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Constantin of Sidona
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map
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2002, 05:22 AM »

I don't see why this cannot be accomodated...

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Sir Iain de Vembria
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Posts: 406


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2002, 10:30 PM »

I agree. There is plenty of space left on the MCS map.

Sir Iain
Knight-Councillor of The Barony of Treesia & Fabon,

Discuss micronations and read the news at the Micronational News Network

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"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
KISEENIA
Guest
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2002, 09:33 PM »

I have some ideas:



First, the problem with the shape of the country could be solved in a constructive way, provided that the allotments are "large" enough [see why]

The nation could draw its boundaries, as not to exceed the allotment. Naturally, there would remain some blanks. Those blanks could have these usage:



- Neutral territory between neighbouring states;

- Tribal or decentralised areas (like in Pakistan);

- Colonies: These could be "bought" or exchanged, at the beggining of the process, by other countries, not neighbouring the respective one [there's always a cost of colonisation]. So, we could match the wishes of those countries who want to have colonies. Of course, they'll have a special legislation, etc.



The allotments should be "large" because all nations should be able to establish smaller communities, areas, counties, zones, etc.  For example, Kiseenia has about 1000 towns, comprising eacs 2 villages. So, we need space.



In the end, I would like to participate at this project too. Please inform me of any details.  

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