TOPICS and SUBCOMMITTEES to discuss them

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

If anyone has ideas for topics to be discussed, covering any aspect of micronational economics, please list them below.



Please also arrange your own subcommittees for the discussion of individual topics below. (Thanks to William Collier and Diga Makonnen for that suggestion)

Sir Iain
Knight-Councillor of The Barony of Treesia & Fabon,

Discuss micronations and read the news at the Micronational News Network

Edited by: Sir Iain de Vembria at: 5/11/02 6:16:13 pm

[Ken Avonts]

What would like to be discussed is:

- Which models of micronational economies exist today?

- What goods can be traded?

- If Government pays most of the wages in the nation, how can it make sure then to have enough money next year?

[Brendig45]

Resurrection of the ICEO or equivalent organisations



an addition to 'what economies exist':

Which is more popular, and works better - investment-driven or consumption-driven economies

Jeffrey Leong


Vizier of The Ministry of Trade and
Economics

Satrap of Kelestan

Sartip of the Imperial Babkhan Army

Ambassador to the LoSS




www.babkha.org

[Lena Larsson]

Hello,



A veryyyy important topic:



What about import and export between micronations.

How will buy my goods and where will I buy mine.



Think about it!



Lena Larsson

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

All excellent suggestions so far. Keep 'em coming.  

Sir Iain
Knight-Councillor of The Barony of Treesia & Fabon,

Discuss micronations and read the news at the Micronational News Network

[Upadaria]

Esteemd and honourable colleagues.



Regardless of any other topics, I believe a most important topic would be encryption technoligies and e-currency. Clearly, with e-currency and encryption technologies micronations and their citizens can actually buy and sell. At first it would seem services would be the easiest things to buy and sell. Thanks to encryption technologies goods could also be purchased.



For this reason I beleive we shoudl discuss encryption technologies and e-currency and ways we might create a service or network for our citizens to use.



William R Collier Jr.

Provisional Regent, The Libercratic Republis of Upadaria



 

[8obby]

The creation of a Common Market, we forward the idea of a Micronational Economic Community.

www.potp.tk

[HIH Diga Makonnen IV]

So far the ideas that have been put forward are all great ideas, yet, I'd like to say that before all of those can be put into place, or before we get on to those subjects, Could we establish a starting point?  Mr. Jeffrey Leong of Babkha touched on this in his post.  For without a beginning point we'll just end up with loads of topics that go in every direction and accomplish little.



The starting point I am refering to, is along the lines of, establishing the actual value rates for each currency of all participating micronations.  The ICEO was an innovative concept with the inclusion of many micronations, but, the currency values were based on a forumula that mainly focused on the demographics of each participating micronation, and the activity level of each.  While for micronational simulations, that may be fine, some micronations that are participating here, may not have large populations or will even deal with simulated products.  Plus, if we went with the ICEO type of currency exchange, those with a few citizens would be at a disadvantage, not to mention, citizen numbers can be manipulated.  Then you have the differences between the various micronations, some focus on simulated products and services, and others such as Attera's would focus more on actual or "real" services that are performed by the businesses.  Others may even deal with actual products and goods that can be bought and sold such as food and clothing. How would we set up something that would take care of the needs of the different systems?



I think that if we do put something together similar to what Mr. Silby "  bby" of Freenesia stated, a Micronational Economic Community, these values must be stated for each micronation.  For example:  One Silver Atterbruuk is equal to $1.50 US Dollars.

Only then can we formally establish the actual values of each.  After that occurs, then we can start to put together other economic issues such as:



1. Will this group conduct business based on actual products or simulated?



2. Will the values of each currency remain static or fluctuate according to supply and demand?



3.  How will transactions take place between governments and who will regulate such transactions?



4.  Will there be an Intermicronational stock market or will each micronation maintain their own?



5.  If there is a Micronational Economic Community set up, how much of each micronational economy will it control and what will be the main goal of the MEC?



6.  If we do establish a MEC type of group, what will be the currency of trade?  One that is simulated or one that is backed by actual substance?



These are just a few questions for now, I'd appreciate answers from all here, so that I may discuss this with my goverment.



Thank you.

Imperial Ras Diga Makonnen IV Co-Regent and Imperial Ras of Attera

Edited by: HIH Diga Makonnen IV  at: 5/11/02 9:36:13 am

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

So it looks as though the Summit should principally be concerned with establishing a viable, workable and flexible intermicronational economic system that allows the participation of both simulated and real economies while avoiding manipulation by population size, and addition there can be secondary debates on general economic topics that may concern micronationalism.

Sir Iain
Knight-Councillor of The Barony of Treesia & Fabon,

Discuss micronations and read the news at the Micronational News Network

[Upadaria]

Honourable colleaugues,

I respectfully submit that we should consider the creation of a coomon e-currency, at least for real services being exchanged by members.

Moroever I respectfully suggest that we assign topics to one or more inidivudals per topis, e.g. e-currency, exchange rates, a trade organization to settle disputes, and etc.

I would be willing to help with e-currency (finding out what options are available).



William R Collier Jr.

[HIH Diga Makonnen IV]

I agree with Mr. Collier from Upadaria, that if there are sub committees, for the several topics and everyone is assigned to a few, this may be extremely helpful.  I'm willing to put forward time to work on exchange rates, if you all don't mind, since, that would be something I'm very familiar with.

With the creation of a neutral e-currency or the adoption of one that is already fully recognised in on the web would be welcomed by the Atteran Federation, on the grounds that it would be a fair start.  What suggestions do you have Mr. Collier?  Yet, I have another question for you, how would individual micronations decide the value of their currencies against the e-currency, or would there be an organization for that?  That part, I'm not so familiar with.  The reason for my earlier comments was because, there are micronational companies that may end up establishing divisions or subsidiaries in other micronations and will naturally want to exchange their several different currencies into their home currency.

Imperial Ras Diga Makonnen IV Co-Regent and Imperial Ras of Attera

[Ken Avonts]

The sub-commitee-system would be very easy indeed. But don't forget to discuss micronational economic systems etc., because it seems as this summit will only be about a revival of the ICEO.  

Ken Avonts

Regent of the Islamic Republic of
Antverpia

http://users.pandora.be/ir-antverpia

[Trevon Andarosel]

Homourable represents,



As far as I understand, this discussion is about intermicronational economic activities. This is certainly a necessary point to be discussed, but isn't it useful to discuss first what kind of economic system would work for one micronation?



Only if you know how to keep one economy up and running, it is useful to think about how economies can be linked together, IMO.



Trevon Andarosel.

The storyteller of Ex, Umbagollah


Ilotim ilo arelisin il parduvile arelis te arelisin
The truth is just too true to be true for everyone

[Scott Siskind]

I would like to humbly disagree with the representative from Updaria. One of the driving forces of micronational economics in the first place is the desire of every country to have and use their own currency. It is part of the desire of micronations to have all of the "trappings" of a macronation that they can - flag, motto, currency, et cetera. Furthermore, currency exchange, far from being an unfortunate busy-work task, could be made into a useful tool. Companies could be set up which buy large quantities of currency from different micronations and then trade them for a profit. In fact, DStryker got much of his wealth by betting on currency fluctuations, and although that would in my book be called insider trading, the basic principle behind it is sound. Of course, this would require us making a very complex currency exchange system rather than going with one of the more simple ones that have been proposed, but it might well be worth it.

If we do decide to use a common currency, though, I suggest only the value be standardized. For example, in the euro, a euro is always worth a certain number of dollars or yen, but each country is allowed to decorate theirs as they see fit. It might be possible to expand that concept into each country can design and name its own currency as long as it keeps the same value. That way, Attera could keep its Atterbruuk and Treesia could keep its gold piece and so on, but they could exchange them very easily. Although I don't see why it would be so difficult to set up a system where it's just something like two Atterbucks equals one gold piece, but it looks like people don't want that.

Also, I am very wary of pegging micronational currency to those in macronations. If Ras Makonnen set his Atterbruuk to $1.50 US dollars, it would cause incredible problems for currency exchange and even internally. Even if he only paid members of the Atteran government a single Atterbruuk each week, this would add up to a major monetary drain on his personal finances (although I'm probably misunderstanding his proposal). And if Tymaria prints 100000 Tymarks and there's a free exchange system, then unless Lord Diga is a multimillionaire who has absolutely no sense of the value of money, the exchange rate is going to be something like 10000 TM to 1 A$. I would also like to point out that any system we come up with is likely to have flaws, and that if micronational money were pegged to the dollar (or euro, or anything macronational) these could be exploited to make someone pay the equivalent of a few thousand dollars, which obviously they would refuse to do, and the whole system would break down.

[HIH Diga Makonnen IV]

To Mr. Siskind,

Lady Esato just used the basis of the value of the land that my family owns in Eritrea as the "substance" that would give the Atterbruuk "actual" value, if we were to actually print them for sale as a means to generate actual income for our micronation's expenses, such as for domain payments and other ventures in the future.  She doesn't intend on the Silver Atterbruuk to be actually pegged to the Dollar for use in the microworld, since that would pose the same problem when the UAS was in existance and Attera had $5000.00 of my own money actually backing A*- 10,000.  That would basically crush any other micronational currency in value and cause the major problems you so brilliantly explained.

For trade in the micronational world, she was banking on an accurate formula that would allow for the Atterbruuk to be traded as it once was in the ICEO, but with a different formula based on actual supply and demand within each micronation, rather than by demographics that can be manipulated by governments.  



So, in effect, what she is seeking is that there would be two values, one for the "real world" and one for the microworld.  In this way we could sell items in the future using both US Dollars and Atterbruuk to those that actually bothered to buy the items, or the Atterbruuk, (to make the simulation even more realistic, the people could buy the Atterbruuk and use it to buy the products) we want to sell on line, such as your typical tee shirts with the Atteran Fed. flag on them, coffee cups with a catchy Atteran phrase, or the reliable stand by, the infamous pencil with the attera.org logo emblazened all over it.  Then with the micronational value, we could actively participate in the Intermicronational Monetary Markets, establish micronational businesses and thus, trade with other micronations.

 

Imperial Ras Diga Makonnen IV Co-Regent and Imperial Ras of Attera